Holding question...

The spring for the trigger tensioner is just for how much resistance when pulling back. Some peeps like hardly any resistance so it's smooth and some peeps like me like a lot more resistance cause i feel more in control. The softer springs in the plunger is for less pressure needed to depress trigger as for peeps that airbrush for hours on end day in and day out it causes a lot of finger fatigue so a softer spring aids in that. But as far as just depressing the trigger it's only full or no air so no need to try and block it as you can't regulate psi that way
 
Softer springs are desired so that it takes less effort to keep the air and/or paint open. The springs are just strong enough to either shut the air or the paint. There is nobody on here or that I've come across that controls the air with the trigger.
Jinx lol

if you could regulate air that way wouldn't it make it a triple action lol. That would be useless and extremely hard to use for no reason
 
Interesting. Thanks for clearing that up. I had actually been practicing "triple action" style (with some success, though it is/was very difficult). Sounds like what I'd really want for the kind of air control I was thinking of is a MAC valve rather than a soft spring.
 
Yeah that or just use your regulator like most people do. For finer details and over reduced paints turn your psi down. Some people do it by sound as after awhile you just know what it's set at and don't look anymore or for deaf people like me i do it by feel from spraying it on my hand.
 
My regulator can't do increments of less than 5psi or so. And although varying air flow with the trigger like I was doing is very challenging in a patting-your-head-and-rubbing-your-stomach way, I definitely did find that it made a big difference in freehand versatility, so even with a better regulator I'm feeling like I might want a MAC valve to retain some of that.

...Or I might continue working on the "triple-action" thing. Probably crazy of me, but as difficult and incorrect as it might be, I feel like if I can get fluent with it, it could add some nifty extra dimensions to my freehand ability. Sort of a manual vs automatic transmission sort of difference. Only downside I can see to at least trying as an experiment is if it might stand to damage or prematurely wear out the valve.
 
Regs are pretty cheap and you should invest in one. What psi are you trying to shoot at? Typical range is 10 - 28 psi and I've never seen a reg personally that couldn't do this as all it does is restrict the airflow so if it can stop it all the way, it should be able to do whatever and not necessarily read such. Hell mine is shattered and covered in layers of paint so I don't even use the guage part. I still stand by you can't adjust air with a partial depress as an iwata nor any airbrush that i know of doesn't do that because of the design, it's a plunger open close mechanism, not a variable regulator that slowly opens and shuts. But if you think that it is working and it's helping you then go for it, I just think you are making it a million times harder on yourself. Kind of a trying to get drunk with non alcoholic beer kinda thing imo lol. Sure you can actually get drunk on it because it actually has minute amounts, but would have to drink cases of it when you could just buy a high proof and get the job done quick and efficiently.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree with Justin, if it's working for you then go for it, but to be honest you don't need to. If you are not wanting to get as much air out, then just lower your pressure and adjust your paint to suit. Lower air pressure and thinner paint may mean more passes to get the intensity you want, but you will have much greater control, and more subtlety to your work. And it will stop you making the common mistake of going too dark too fast. If you do want a higher pressure at some point during a painting then a quick tweak of the reg is going to be more reliable than trying to hover somewhere between the two - if it even has the desired effect.

I'm not too sure what effect it could have in your freehand ability. Once you have a paintflow/psi you are happy with, thickness of lines, etc is more determined by distance, and mastering different strokes is more about trigger control, and combining those to get the effect you want. Without adjusting the thickness of your paint, more air will likely cause spidering, and probably a lot of unwanted overspray, and less air will cause a grainy look (good if you want a rough texture like stone etc) and hamper the paint flow, maybe even causing a blockage. Building up of tones and shading is best done gradually, so a set lower pressure = a slower build=more control.

Just my opinion, and however you decide to go about it, time on the brush is the most important thing, so enjoy! :)
 
Gotta agree with the going too dark too fast thing... Its very easy done... I have gone to a pretty light grey now, its easier to add a little black when needed. Got a nice pile of a4 sheets with a black line across somewhere i didnt want it!

Then I have a crap AB... Great excuse for being crap! Soon be xmas!!
 
Regs are pretty cheap and you should invest in one. What psi are you trying to shoot at? Typical range is 10 - 28 psi and I've never seen a reg personally that couldn't do this as all it does is restrict the airflow so if it can stop it all the way, it should be able to do whatever and not necessarily read such. Hell mine is shattered and covered in layers of paint so I don't even use the guage part. I still stand by you can't adjust air with a partial depress as an iwata nor any airbrush that i know of doesn't do that because of the design, it's a plunger open close mechanism, not a variable regulator that slowly opens and shuts. But if you think that it is working and it's helping you then go for it, I just think you are making it a million times harder on yourself. Kind of a trying to get drunk with non alcoholic beer kinda thing imo lol. Sure you can actually get drunk on it because it actually has minute amounts, but would have to drink cases of it when you could just buy a high proof and get the job done quick and efficiently.

My reg is just a basic model from Home Depot. I think it's meant more for air tools like socket wrenches and nail guns, so precision was sacrificed in the name of economy. Lessee... it is a "Husky HDA70500AV". I'm still finding my sweet spot pressure wise, but with the .35 tip/needle I currently favor the 10-15psi range. The .5 seems to like in the 15-20 range. With my current reg, I can do 10 or 15 or 20, but I can't control the range in between hardly at all.

A better reg would probably cost more or less the same as a MAC valve, but like I say: if I'm going to be using the air valve on/off fashion, think I want a MAC anyway to keep that control in hand rather than having to pause to adjust the regulator.

The Iwata air valve can definitely do graduated air flow. It's just very tricky because the useful travel is very short (which is why I was pinching the trigger, and why I wanted a softer spring. It is kind of nice to know this isn't how it's intended to be used, as previously I had been thinking that the short travel and on/off feel was a design flaw.

I am definitely making it at least an order of magnitude harder on myself, but I'm not yet convinced it's for no benefit. I think it may be like automatic vs manual transmission: manual seems like an unnecessary pain in the arse to people who learned on an automatic, and even if they learn it, they still prefer to avoid it unless necessary. Manual is a huge pain in the ass to learn, but people who learn to drive that way from the beginning don't experience it as an inconvenience the way automatic drivers do, because it's fully integrated into their reflexes and habits.

So when I hear/read things like your alcohol metaphor, a part of me sees maybe an automatic driver trying to convince a student driver not to bother with learning stick.

It may not pan out in the long run, but I've already spent formative practice time taking it for granted that controlling air with the trigger was normal and something everyone learned. While I now know that's not the case, I don't have a prejudicial conviction that it's too difficult or not worth it that might come from learning the "correct" way from the get go. The opposite, in fact: I can definitely see that it's possible, and it definitely has utility. It's difficult, but I've had to learn difficult things before, so I know that "hard to learn" isn't the same as "hard to do".

Squishy said:
If you are not wanting to get as much air out, then just lower your pressure and adjust your paint to suit. Lower air pressure and thinner paint may mean more passes to get the intensity you want, but you will have much greater control, and more subtlety to your work. And it will stop you making the common mistake of going too dark too fast. If you do want a higher pressure at some point during a painting then a quick tweak of the reg is going to be more reliable than trying to hover somewhere between the two - if it even has the desired effect.

I'm not too sure what effect it could have in your freehand ability. Once you have a paintflow/psi you are happy with, thickness of lines, etc is more determined by distance, and mastering different strokes is more about trigger control, and combining those to get the effect you want. Without adjusting the thickness of your paint, more air will likely cause spidering, and probably a lot of unwanted overspray, and less air will cause a grainy look (good if you want a rough texture like stone etc) and hamper the paint flow, maybe even causing a blockage. Building up of tones and shading is best done gradually, so a set lower pressure = a slower build=more control.

The issue of a regulator being more reliable would in theory be negated by fluency, in much the same way a needle stop is often cited as being negated by fluency. The main difference is that the air valve has shorter travel than the needle, making finer coordination needed, but my "incorrect" practice experiences have given me proof of concept.

My general idea is to make brush operation as fully an extension of my body as possible, so that once fluent I don't have to interrupt or detach myself. Like... the difference between flying like a bird and flying like a man flipping switches in a cockpit? There's probably terms in interface design for what I'm thinking of, I'll have to look it up. I want to be able to vary that stuff either within a single stroke, or without having interrupt myself with a trip to the regulator (even if it's right next to me, it's still an interruption; even a MAC valve would be to some degree, compared to just moving your fingers like you do for paint). Same principle as being able to do dagger strokes with a double action vs simple strokes with a single action, just in a different/additional axis, as it were. Again: I've already found this is possible, it's just a matter of developing the muscle memory to exploit it. The useful range before the paint reduction starts to be a factor is maybe only 5psi or so (maybe 10, depending on tip/needle size and reduction), but it's enough to make a visible difference in the results.

Now that my brain is rolling, I'm wishing I was a machinist, or at least had some machinist's equipment like a metal lathe and mill. While I think my concept might be workable, I can see it definitely isn't what the triggers and valves are designed for ergonomically. I'm finding myself picturing alternate valve/trigger setups that could maybe make it much easier.
 
Meh I give up lol do as you please. It's in the physical design of the airbrush not a preference. I drive both manual and automatics so that logic isn't the same as there is a physical choice whereas with an airbrush there isn't "options" have fun with your backwards way of airbrushing lol [emoji12]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Both those points are tangential to the intended comparison. The airbrush may not be designed for it, but if it's capable of it, then an user-end option exists regardless. The purpose of the analogy was to show how the subjective assessment of an option's usefulness can be biased by a pre-establlished skillset.

In any case, I've said repeatedly that it's just an experiment. I don't really understand why the idea of someone trying it seems to distress people so.
 
A softer spring in an Iwata does not give you more linear travel. It is still just on/off. Just remember, the different viscosity of paint determines the pressure you you need to work at and vice versa. So if you don't change the viscosity but you reduce the pressure in one swoop, it is not gonna work.
 
I know the spring won't effect travel length. I'm hoping it will soften the action, making incremental movement easier in the same way as with a softer or dialed out needle spring. As I said before, opening the valve incrementally is possible even though it's not designed to be used that way: I've already been doing it for weeks. It's just difficult to control because of the short travel and stiffness.

I know about the viscosity aspect as well. That's what I was talking about above when I said there's only maybe a 5psi useful range: that's the approximate margin I've found so far where psi can be varied for a given reduction before I begin to get adverse effects like grainy atomization or paint flow stalling.

I don't want to give the impression I'm being argumentative or contrarian with this stuff, or that I'm unappreciative/ungrateful for the great info people gave given me here. I hope I don't come off that way, but I can be awkward, so I apologize if that's been the case. I'm not much of a verbal thinker, so I kind of suck at translating simple ideas into words efficiently. Makes it look like I'm overthinking or pushing ideas way harder than I actually am sometimes.
 
I have the Zolt spring in both my Eclipse and Micron and tried your method last night. I can not do it. It just takes soooo much effort to try and hold the trigger half down while still trying to open the paint. It feels like there is a certain point where it goes from close to open in a hair's breadth. With a Badger and Harder & Steenbeck it is easier but still takes loads of concentration. MAC valves for me all the way.
 
Yeah, that's why I was gravitating to a grip where I was pinching the trigger between index finder and thumb (index in front thumb on the back). Like you, I can't do it hardly at all if I only have my index finger on the trigger.

A CH or Micron style MAC valve might be the best compromise, since it looks like one might be able to control it on the fly by resting your middle finder on it. I don't have one of those though, so I can't test that myself.
 
Last edited:
A softer spring in an Iwata does not give you more linear travel. It is still just on/off. Just remember, the different viscosity of paint determines the pressure you you need to work at and vice versa. So if you don't change the viscosity but you reduce the pressure in one swoop, it is not gonna work.

This is the point I was trying to make, without altering paint reduction trying to control air flow on the fly with a trigger will not be effective, as the paint will not have the right reduction for the different amounts of air. It is easier to tweak the air than constantly thicken or thin paint in the cup, which will also affect colour density. A good paint flow always includes this ratio - paint: reducer: psi . Remove any of these from the equation and the effectiveness is altered. Even with a mac valve you would still need to thicken or thin paint as you go to get the performance and control you need, and once you have the ratio set up to get the flow you're looking for, it's pretty rare that you need to change the amount of air.

The only time I change my air pressure is if I'm covering a large area, applying a sealer, or if changing the surface I'm painting on, i.e last time I painted a shirt and this time I'm painting a bike tank - and that would be at the start of a painting and then remain the same throughout.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top