H&S Evo 2in1 vs. Iwata Micron CM-SB2

pcDoc

Gravity Guru
My other thread (Micron vs. Infinity) was more about asking for help on which gut to buy next. In this thread I would like to share my thoughts on both guns I have (my personal opinion). But of course everybody is welcome to add his/her experiences and thoughts about those two guns and how they compare.

Warning: will be a longer one... ;)

Some facts to start with:

Iwata Custom Micron CM-SB2:
Price: 420€
Nozzle: 0,18
Cup: side cup with 3,8ml
Adjustable trigger: pull down and pull back force adjustable

H&S EVO 2in1 (the classic one):
Price: 156€
Nozzle: 0,2 + 0,4
Cup: gravity feed 2mm + 5mm
Adjustable trigger: pull down force adjustable


I did use the CM-SB2 in two sessions now, so not too much experience, but I tried quite a lot of different things with it already, so I think I have at least a good idea of what it can do and what not. (limited with my skills of course).

Trigger response (the first thing I noticed immediately):
Evo:
About 1mm or less when pulling the trigger back, where there is no action. You feel a little resistance when the trigger starts pulling back the needle.
CM-SB: The slightest movement of the trigger and paint goes through the nozzle.

I used to the Evo, but this was one of the things I don't like about it. For areas or larger to "normal" size things absolutely not issue and it works perfectly fine for me, but when it comes to really fine details I struggled a bit with that! In this case I was really positively surprised by the CM-SB2! It feels more intuitive and much easier. And I have the feeling that the Evo increases paint flow quicker, so I can control it better with the Iwata. As with almost everything there is a but! I guess that is just how you are used to it, but if you push the trigger down, you need to be much more careful as with the Evo! The trigger is that sensitive, that if you pull back just a very tiny bit (by pushing the trigger down), you have immediately paint coming out. No risk on the Evo here. By adjusting the rear spring you can "improve" that a bit, but I do really like that very soft resistance when pulling the trigger back! I will get used to it! :thumbsup:

Fine details (and I mean really fine details :malicious:):
Evo:
I can do fine details with it, no question about that! But mainly due to the trigger I always struggled with getting consistent fine details. I bought the Quickfix accessory, which is nothing else as a needle limiter (21€). I can tell you since I bought that thing, I use it for almost every really fine detail work! It makes it soooo much easier for me to get consistent details like hair or similar! That quick release button is wonderful and a great idea! The second thing I was struggling with was low pressure and extreemly reduced paint. I get more a dotted line, than a clean line.
CM-SB: First of all, the needle limiter is crap! I don't know why, but I don't like it at all! And I can fully understand your comments, that most of you don't use it. Now having said that I have sooo much more control with the CM, that I don't really need it! To get really fine lines is just a pleasure with the Iwata! It works much better at lower pressure and a fine line is a solid line, and not a dotted one!

With both I'm getting good fine details, but here I do see the CM as a clear winner! When I do some very fine dagger strokes I relatively often get some paint coming out of the Evo when I release the trigger. Nozzle is clean and needle ok. On anything larger than hair fine details this is not an issue, but as I love to do some really fine details this was a pain and I always blamed myself for not releasing the trigger right, or stop the motion to early. With the Iwata I didn´t have that a single time so far!

Cleaning:
Evo: It is that simple to clean! No tools needed, good access to everything. Not really anything I can complain about here! As the cup is removable it is really as easy as it can be. There is always a bit of my paint (Schmincke and Molotow One4All) in the nozzle, when I clean it (and I do that after every session (even if it is just half an hour), but it removes easily.
CM-SB: Well, not really difficult to clean, but you need to be very careful with the nozzle. It is simply too small and fragile in my opinion. The side cup is not difficult to clean, but it is definitely more work than the cup of the Evo, which is done in seconds, whereas the side cup you need to detach, unscrew the bottom, clean it with a brush, and so on. It seems like my paint is not really that sticky to the nozzle. I couldn't find any paint in it after 2 hours work with it.

Even though the Iwata is not really difficult to clean I would definitely give the win to the Evo in that category.

Versatility, Spareparts & Accessories:
Evo:
nozzle: 15€, needle: 10€, planty of accessory! You can have nozzles 0,15 0,2 0,4 and even 0,6! Also with the cup you have plenty of options: <1ml, 2ml, 5ml, 15ml, 50ml! Quickfix, an adapter to turn it into a syphon feed airbrush as well! I cannot image there is a more versatile AB out there! Availability where I live is great!
CM-SB: nozzle 65€, needle: 27€ and everything else is pretty expansive as well! Accessories I only have the softer spring (5€), which in my opinion doesn't really make that much of a difference the way I spay, but for those who prefer a softer trigger, it is noticeable! There aren't too many other accessories what I found, other than a larger cup and a slightly larger nozzle 0,23! Not sure if the difference between the 0,18 and 0,23 nozzle is significant enough to buy it it for that price, but maybe someone who has tried both can comment on that. I didn't even find a lid for the side cup and I think how it is build this wouldn't even work. Availability of spare parts where I live is pretty limited, but nothing an online shop wouldn't solve!

This win goes VERY clearly to the Evo in my opinion!

Spray pattern:
On this topic I don't want to comment yet. At a first glance I liked the one from the CM-SB much more when I tested it on normal printer paper. On airbrush paper I couldn't really see too much difference and on a canvas I'm currently working on there is no difference at all visible to me. In terms of overspray the Evo is already pretty good, but the CM is a bit better! There is hardly any overspray!

Value for money:

I clearly think the Evo (especially the 2in1) is the better deal! I'm obsessed with ultra fine details, so I absolutely do not regret getting the CM-SB as it clearly is better for fine details. But I don't think it does a so much better job when doing "normal" size stuff, though it is for sure not worse! ;) It is simply just not worth 3,5 times the price of the Evo if you don't need those really fine details!

Conclusion:
I almost took away the conclusion already in the previous paragraph as there is not much to add! It might seem as an unfair battle between those two guns, but I think they are not that far away from each other as many might think! The CM is really a fine gun and it can do most of the things slightly to extreemely better than the Evo. If it is worth the additional money everybody needs to decide him-/herself. I will definitely not give away the Evo, but currently I struggle a bit with switching guns due to the different trigger behavior, but lets see if I get used to that! Maybe I will use it more with the 0,4 nozzle in the future as I have the CM now for the details. :)
 
Thanks for the great write up , Yes Budget is everything when looking for a detail airbrush.
Being side feeds and I do not get a long I have the CM-C+ and the infinity 2in 1. both can do the fine detail I just the the feel of the micron better LOL
 
I would recommend you test both brushes intensively for a year and see which one let's you down the most, see which one caused you most wasted paint and which one caused you the most frustration overall, I already know the answer to that, so in my house there is nothing but Iwata brushes now and I'm happy to pay 3.5 times the price because in my opinion based on a little more experience than just two play around tests I know it is going to work.

I've had the Evolution 2 in 1 silverline and thanks to that, Harder & Steenbeck suffer the same fate as my in-laws, they will never ever step over my threshold, some refer to the delayed trigger response as a "feature":eek: what idiot goes into an airbrush shop and says "hello, I'm on the lookout for an airbrush that will surprise me by blasting a huge cloud of black paint over a project I've been working on for weeks" ? not many I would assume.

I'm afraid it is totally wrong to base a review on two years use of one brush and two single uses of another, a review should be based on both brushes being put through there paces for the same length of time and made to take all the same tests, for example two paintings exactly the same done with both brushes, although there is no need whatsoever to do this since I already know which one is the winner, our mentor @airbrushtutor always said "you get what you pay for", after faffing about with cheapies and some substandard crap (EVO) I decided I will pay 3.5 times the price for "CERTAINTY".

I'm not saying H&S brushes are a wrong choice, I'm just saying that they are the wrong for me, my experience was enough to make not trust anything they make, I would happily pay 10 times the price for the certainty I have now, I at least know that if my Micron or other iwatas do anything wrong, it's definitely my fault.
 
I have the H&S. 2 in1 and must say I am impressed . I don't believe at my skill level (lack of ) lol a micron will make any difference. Except to my wallet . I have has no issues at all running at lower pressures with the H&S Using trident and comart so far down to 6 psi . The iwata does atomise paint better and produces a soft spray ,but it should as it's supposed to be the best you can get . Thanx for your review .
 
@Madbrush: I will certainly continue to use both and will collect more experience with the CM for sure. So my view might change over time, but this review was not meant to hammer the facts in stone! As mentioned in the very beginning this is just my personal opinion, and I think I clearly mentioned that this is based on limited experience with the CM!

By reading what you wrote about the trigger of the Evo, it seems you never got used to the Evo. I wouldn't call it a feature, and this delay is clearly one of the things which made me bought the CM! But by all means, it is very controllable and it never gave me a bad surprise like blasting a huge cloud of black paint over a project as you said! Working on very small details, you need to pull the trigger back a little till you feel some resistance and then it works basically without a delay. Now doing multiple quick strokes this play is a bit irritating as you easily go a bit to far, but for me that is just a problem when doing really fine lines as I mentioned. Everything >2mm is no problem at all. Everything <2mm I can do, but need to be more careful and there the Quickfix helps a lot as once adjusted you just pull the trigger the full way to the stop.

Even though we don't need to share the same view about those guns (and I really welcome different opinions), I cannot understand your really bad opinion about the Evo! Is there anything other than the trigger, you don't like about it?
 
I would compair the Evo more with an Iwata HP-BP or CP and not the Micron. And if you like to go for Iwata like quality then there is also the Olympos 100B or 100C the only cost €130,-
There are not much airbrushs that tips an Iwata or Olympos Micron.
 
@Madbrush: I will certainly continue to use both and will collect more experience with the CM for sure. So my view might change over time, but this review was not meant to hammer the facts in stone! As mentioned in the very beginning this is just my personal opinion, and I think I clearly mentioned that this is based on limited experience with the CM!

By reading what you wrote about the trigger of the Evo, it seems you never got used to the Evo. I wouldn't call it a feature, and this delay is clearly one of the things which made me bought the CM! But by all means, it is very controllable and it never gave me a bad surprise like blasting a huge cloud of black paint over a project as you said! Working on very small details, you need to pull the trigger back a little till you feel some resistance and then it works basically without a delay. Now doing multiple quick strokes this play is a bit irritating as you easily go a bit to far, but for me that is just a problem when doing really fine lines as I mentioned. Everything >2mm is no problem at all. Everything <2mm I can do, but need to be more careful and there the Quickfix helps a lot as once adjusted you just pull the trigger the full way to the stop.

Even though we don't need to share the same view about those guns (and I really welcome different opinions), I cannot understand your really bad opinion about the Evo! Is there anything other than the trigger, you don't like about it?


In my own opinion I simply ended up with a Monday model that should never have been allowed out of the factory, I spent more than nine months trying to get used to, I even tried all the so called solutions that were offered to me here on the forum, all to no avail, I ended up trashing the brush totally and throwing it away, I care too much about the well being of others to have tried to sell it on, so as I said, this does not mean that every H&S brush is a dud, but I personally would not guide anyone at all to an H&S shop in light of my own experience.

It only took me about 15 minutes to get used to my Micron, why do you suppose that could be? I personally think it's down to quality, precision and efficient design, attributes which to me are well worth huge price, like most I took all the hype about the micron with a pinch of salt but I got my Micron as a present from one of our very kind members here and within minutes I was addicted to it, I now have three Iwatas with another one coming soon and my experience with all three is enough to tell me I just do not need anything else and certainly don't need to have to get used to a temperamental trigger system, €65 is indeed a lot for a nozzle but with the correct care that nozzle will last a very long time.

Of course you are entitled to express your views on the differences of these brushes, but your review is more of a case for your findings so so far rather than a review, enjoy your Micron consistently for a few months and I reckon you will wonder how you ever got by without it;)

As I said I would never point anyone in the direction of and H&S but I would also not advise them not buy because I'm sure again as I said, I got the runt of the litter:) I just wouldn't take the chance again.
 
Good review. I just don't know why everybody has a dead spot on their H&S triggers. Neither my Evo or Infinity has a dead spot. If H&S made a side feed which worked the same as the Iwata's, I would not bother with an Iwata. But because I have an Iwata, it will always take preference over the H&S.
 
you all know I am hooked to my Iwata K33 SM SB and just love my CM SB , but I wanted to know why my friends struggled with the HS so I tried the HS : like PC Doc I found the response to the trigger slow and I found myself struggle in the same way as my friends did and I gave one friend an Iwata HP B to see if it would improve his control and the other one my CM SB 1 .
the friend with the Hp B is real "heavy handed" but after working with it for 5 minutes he wanted to buy that brush from me for his control over it was near perfect ( his words )
the other friend could not stop working with the CM SB and kept going on over the trigger response and how smooth it was to operate ( the Zolt soft air valve spring was installed and the needle spring was adjusted the way I like it and the spring was used for about 5 years so much softer as a new spring )and he ended up buying it from me
 
Good review. I just don't know why everybody has a dead spot on their H&S triggers.

Thanks! I just made a video for you to show you what I mean. I would really wonder if yours doesn't have that, as from what I can see it is a construction thing.


@Lion-Art: I only have those two guns, and especially where in the German speaking region a lot of people use the Evo! For quite a lot of people (including me) it is the first "real" AB. So my intention was more to share my experience for people who might be in the same situation as I am/was. If I would own the top model from Iwata already, I would possible not by an Evo and stick to Iwata, but as mentioned a lot of people (at least around here) start with an Evo. I consider myself an advanced beginner and I felt ready to go the next step, which would have been either the Infinity or the CM. Based on the comments here in the forum my understanding was that the trigger is slightly better on the Infinity, but very similar in the behavior to the Evo. That caused me to go the full way and buy a CM.
 
Oh you can see why that is there. Mine does that too but will have to see how much. To me, the pull back only starts when you feel tension. Then you don't want to try an Aztek in double action mode. There you've got about 50% of the total trigger movement as dead.
 
I have my first joint of the finger on the trigger for fine stuff so this is a bit anoying. This is absolutely not there on the CM, which I prefer. As mentioned my only work around was with the quickfix, which helped me a lot beeing quicker on fine lines, especially repetitive stuff like fur/hair.

As the video is a close up, it might look worse than it really is, but would be interesting if you have less or the same!
 
I have my first joint of the finger on the trigger for fine stuff so this is a bit anoying. This is absolutely not there on the CM, which I prefer. As mentioned my only work around was with the quickfix, which helped me a lot beeing quicker on fine lines, especially repetitive stuff like fur/hair.

As the video is a close up, it might look worse than it really is, but would be interesting if you have less or the same!

Mine was a lot worse than that and that combined with the extreme taper angle of the needle (every H&S needle) caused a lot of problems in my case.
 
I have my first joint of the finger on the trigger for fine stuff so this is a bit anoying. This is absolutely not there on the CM, which I prefer. As mentioned my only work around was with the quickfix, which helped me a lot beeing quicker on fine lines, especially repetitive stuff like fur/hair.

As the video is a close up, it might look worse than it really is, but would be interesting if you have less or the same!

I've seen this slop issue on mine once or twice. I made it go away by removing waist and trigger. Put it back together and see if the slop is in there without the needle in place and the trigger pressed down.
Neither of my H&S brushes have this issue when the trigger is pressed down. There is the slight play when the trigger is not depressed, but it doesn't matter there. You could also have a delay if the needle is not seated all the way. Try twisting the needle with slight forward pressure toward the front of the brush, then tighten the needle chuck. The only time I've had this help is if there is paint built up inside the tip of the nozzle.
 
I have also tryed some airbrushes incl the HS and yes I also had the trigger response problems they are not contant.

That is why I like Iwata they aways reponse at the same time. Now the pricing is quite high so that is why I use and sell more Olympos airbrushes.

Now I don't use one airbrush the Micron only for the fine detail work the rest I use an HP-100B 0,2mm and HP-100C 0,3
 
I have looked into the "slop" in the trigger and can say that if it's really a problem you can just shim the trigger up so it picks the needle up straight away .
 
Nice write up but (and please don't take this wrong :p) for me it's a bit wierd to compare a micorn to an evo. It comes acros as comparing a minivan to a lambogini :D.

Sure they are both airbrushes and the evo is very much capable of doing detail work, but going back to the cars, both will drive and take corners but are bought for different reasons.

A micron comes into it's own when doing fine to very fine detail (if I were to compare it I'd take the infinity with a 0,15 setup) and for me it's (still) unsurpassed in that.

It does take more than a bit of experience with an airbrush though to realy start apreciating just how good a micron is. When I airbrushed for about 2 years I got to try a cm-sb and eventhough I did notice it made doing detail easier it wasn't that much of a difference to the brush I was using at that time (which happened to be an evo :)). If anyone at that time would have asked me if it was worth the difference in price I think I'd have said no.

A year and a half later (and a lot more practice behind me) I bought one (for the very good reason I wanted to spend some monies and could afford it :p) and did start to notice a big difference.

I know this is going to sound terrible arrogant and elitist but I think (this is realy a personal oppinion!) to realy apreciate what the micron is capable of one needsto be a pretty acomplished airbrusher (on a technical level). There is a reason why nearly all "proffesionals" stick to that gun.


I do think it's a nice write up and I apreciate you taking the time to post it, but for me these guns realy can't be compared :)
 
@haasje dutchairbrush:

I absolutely don't take it personal, but as I mentioned before, I know these are two very different guns and it was never my intend to really compare those two guns as rivals! More to give a hint to somebody who might be in the same situation as I was. This is what I wrote:

...I only have those two guns, and especially in the German speaking region a lot of people use the Evo! For quite a lot of people (including me) it is the first "real" AB. So my intention was more to share my experience for people who might be in the same situation as I am/was. If I would own the top model from Iwata already, I would possible not by an Evo and stick to Iwata, but as mentioned a lot of people (at least around here) start with an Evo. I consider myself an advanced beginner and I felt ready to go the next step, which would have been either the Infinity or the CM. Based on the comments here in the forum my understanding was that the trigger is slightly better on the Infinity, but very similar in the behavior to the Evo. That caused me to go the full way and buy a CM.

And also on the missing experience on my side, I didn't try to hide anything, and I think I was pretty open about the conditions:

I did use the CM-SB2 in two sessions now, so not too much experience, but I tried quite a lot of different things with it already, so I think I have at least a good idea of what it can do and what not. (limited with my skills of course).

I get a bit the feeling that my intentions with that thread weren't explained enough in the initial thread (which I cannot edit anymore), but let me say at this point again: It was NOT intended to be a professional product review/test, nor should it be a post for professionals which already have one and love their CM! When I was in the decision phase of buying a CM, I was looking for experiences of people who moved from an EVO to an CM, but that was very limited or basically without any details, just saying "I like the CM more"! As mentioned above, at least in my region I know more people using an EVO/Infinity than Iwata (mainly non-professionals), so I thought that might have been a help for those who might consider to upgrade from an Evo to a CM, as this is a big step in terms of spend! That's why I also wrote:

...everybody is welcome to add his/her experiences and thoughts about those two guns and how they compare.
 
@haasje dutchairbrush:

I absolutely don't take it personal, but as I mentioned before, I know these are two very different guns and it was never my intend to really compare those two guns as rivals! More to give a hint to somebody who might be in the same situation as I was. This is what I wrote:



And also on the missing experience on my side, I didn't try to hide anything, and I think I was pretty open about the conditions:



I get a bit the feeling that my intentions with that thread weren't explained enough in the initial thread (which I cannot edit anymore), but let me say at this point again: It was NOT intended to be a professional product review/test, nor should it be a post for professionals which already have one and love their CM! When I was in the decision phase of buying a CM, I was looking for experiences of people who moved from an EVO to an CM, but that was very limited or basically without any details, just saying "I like the CM more"! As mentioned above, at least in my region I know more people using an EVO/Infinity than Iwata (mainly non-professionals), so I thought that might have been a help for those who might consider to upgrade from an Evo to a CM, as this is a big step in terms of spend! That's why I also wrote:

I don't think you're wrong to compare the two brushes. They are both in the same category of being a detail brush. I personally use my Evo AL Plus more than my Micron, just a personal preference. I could do the same painting with the Evo, Micron, or Eclipse and you wouldn't be able to tell which one was painted with one or the other. I can personally pull the same detail/lines with the Evo(.2mm) and my CMC+(.23mm). Both are great detail brushes and I can do fine detail work on Yupo at low pressure without spidering. The Micron can get slightly lower with the pressure, but not enough to be a noticeable difference. It all comes down to learning your brushes and how they work with reduction and pressure.
 
The trigger issue that's been mentioned here on the evolution I addressesed today . Firstly I stripped and rebuilt the unit ,then checked the action .Results was virtually no excessive play and the needle picks up as soon as the trigger is pulled back . If this had not cured the issue I looked at shimming it up to remove the play and that is achieve able ,just finding a small shim will be the issue .
 
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