Possible Micron issues

Nessus

Needle-chuck Ninja
I've had my CM-SB for few months now, and I've noticed a few issues that are bugging me.

1) The needle action is off-center in relation to the nozzle. It it seems to go through a reciprocating up and down arc as I pull back on the trigger, which causes it to dip so low that it looks like it might actually be rubbing on the nozzle. This is very scary, especially since I spent an extra $100 on a K33 needle. Some of this appears to be due to a loose tolerance between the spring screw and the needle chucking guide that allows the spring screw to wiggle in the guide, but I'm not sure if that's the only culprit, or just another symptom of the same unknown root issue.

2) Either the nozzle cap, air cap, or head piece don't align properly. When the brush first arrived, these were all assembled so that the prongs of the air cap were at a perfect vertical/horizontal cross relative to the body. After I took these pieces apart for inspection and put them back together (I did not unscrew the nozzle from the head, just head from the body, and nozzle cap and air cap from the head & each other), they would no longer so align, but instead always screw together with the prongs maybe 30 degrees short of that perfect vertical/horizontal cross. At no time have I cross-threaded anything, and I've inspected and cleaned these parts several times now looking for some bit of grit or lint or something that might be interfering with the threads, but to no avail. No matter what I do, the crown cap alignment is always off by the exact same amount. Unlike with my Eclipse, where the body/nozzle cap joint has an o-ring that can influence this sort of thing, making it never exactly the same way twice, the Micron parts screw down metal-to-metal (there is an o-ring, but it doesn't work the same way structurally), so this SHOULD be dead consistent every time, but somehow something has thrown it off and I can't figure out what.

3) Depressing the trigger for the air valve has an uncomfortable "bump", for lack of a better word. It feels like The base of the trigger doesn't center on the top of the air valve, so it wants to redirect that force backward at the pivot instead of pushing the plunger down (i.e. it wants to hyperextend the pivot, pushing the pivot back and the button forward instead of the whole trigger down). If I pull the trigger back slightly before pushing down, this doesn't happen, as the downward force is then more directly in line with the plunger. My Eclipse does this too with its stock trigger, but not with the taller Kustom-CS trigger. Neither my Paasche or Badger brushes have this issue, so it seems like a design flaw that's unique to Iwata? I guess I wasn't expecting something like this from a $500 top-of-the-line brush.

I have no idea if 2 has anything to do with 1. It seems plausible at first blush, but since the needle does that up and down arc regardless of the head (the motion seems to originate in the trigger mechanism somewhere), I don't think it's the case.

2 and 3 are mostly just annoying (2 mostly just means I can't rely on custom orientation if I ever get an aftermarket prong cap, 3 just seems like a really glaring design flaw for a $500 brush)

But 1 is REALLY scary, and kind of infuriating considering how much this brush cost. It's got me reluctant to use the brush further, and if I can't use it in confidence I'd be best off returning it (if I still can). This was a big expense and thus a big leap, so if I ended up just having to eat the cost on a brush I can't use and don't feel ethically comfortable selling would probably hurt enough to make me give up airbrushing.

What should I do?
 
Last edited:
My first question will be how does the brush work? Are there actual performance issues, or just observations you have made that seem like something may be off? "Design flaw" is a pretty strong conclusion for a brush that has been in production for decades, with thousands of satisfied users ;). You should be able to alter the part of the trigger button you apply initial pressure to, as to better centralize the the force over the trigger post. I think I know the feeling you are referring to, almost like a "snap" before air initiation, and this is usually actually caused by stiction of the push pin under the trigger, and the o-ring it goes through. Altering the amount of tension on the air valve spring, as well as maybe a very light application of vasaline to the pin may help remove the feeling.

I have a collection of Microns, and not one of them has a needle cap that lines up perfectly vertical. Nor are any of them exactly the same in orientation - as the parts are not indexed during manufacture. It is possible they simply screwed the parts together tighter than you are. This too, should not effect the position of the nozzle and needle, as to cause the needle to appear off center. Custom pronged caps usually rely on an o-ring on the head to allow for some adjustment of orientation - one of the reasons I am not offering them, is that I can not guarantee orientation on a brush I do not have here.

If you feel that there could possibly be a problem with the brushes performance, that you believe is based on it's actual construction, it is something you could certainly discuss with the vendor. If it is simply that the brush is not exactly what you expected it to be, well, not much you can do about that...
 
Have you used it or just took it out the box and installed the K33 needle before even using it as it was designed?
Try it with paint see how it sprays.
I myself can not see spending money on a 100 dollar needle being I have yet to have the original bend on me and I can polish it to look like a mirror myself.
But unless you are seeing issues while actually using it to me I do not see a problem .
 
My major concern is about wear incurred on the nozzle and needle if the needle is rubbing on the nozzle. Needles being off center in nozzles to some degree is normal, as I understand it, but needles being so off center that they actually scrape against the nozzle is not, and is considered a defect and a bad sign. I've read numerous threads in the past where this has been diagnosed as a very bad thing, and I see no reason why that would change just because the brush in question is a Micron.

I did not know the head assembly threads are not indexed. I got the impression they were due to FoxyStudio offering to customize prong orientation on the "black devil" cap catalog page. That would not be possible for brushes not physically in their possession unless the threads were indexed. Not a big deal, ultimately, as I could grind a prong cap out of a stock crown cap, and the existing offset on my brush would actually make that easier to get the orientation I'd want. Mostly just confusing.

I do consider the the "hitch" in the valve action a flaw, since it's uncomfortable and isn't present in other brushes. Not a flaw which affects the brush's performance, but does effect it's comfort in a way that stands out on something otherwise carefully designed. I have lubed the trigger and niether that nor the spring tension makes a difference. Opening the valve and lubing the internal o-ring might, but I don't know if that would contaminate the airstream or otherwise compromise the valve's function. If it is safe to do, I'd like to try it if it might eliminate or lessen that "hitch".

As far as how it sprays, yes, I've painted with it, and as far as I know it sprays OK. It's the first/only Micron I've experienced, so I have no way of knowing if it's spraying fully as it should, or just "OK, but not as good as it should".

I did use it with the stock needle before installing the K33 needle. I did not notice the "needle drop" issue until recently however, so I'd have to dig out the original needle and swap back to check if the original needle behaves differently.

As far as "not what I expected", my expectations can be simply expressed as "should be better than the $100 brushes I already own". I don't think that's in any way unfair. TBH, given the cost difference, I'd think it's a fair minimum. I didn't spend that money for the name, I spent it for the very reputation you'd dismiss my experiences with. If anyone want's to poo-poo concerns merely because I have the audacity to have any at all, then one might as well sell $500 whittled wood sticks as "Microns".

Both this brush and the K33 needle have very good reputations. I trusted the word of people here aggregated over years of consistent good peer review in order to form my expectations in the first place. Neither of these were an impulse buy, it was something I waited and watched and tried to vett through the community for years first. leaping to blaming my expectations implies that the community is useless for actually helping people make these choices.

As part of that community who has tried to help others in turn (to the best of my admittedly lesser experience), I did not and do not believe it is useless. Instead leaping around my actual concerns to questioning my expectations, or acting like I was taking a chance on rando Chinese parts by putting in a K33 needle kinda comes across as the honor of a brand name being more important than honestly helping.

I'm going to double check the fit and action on the stock needle. Depending how that goes, I'll be contacting either Iwata USA warranty services or FoxyStudio.
 
My major concern is about wear incurred on the nozzle and needle if the needle is rubbing on the nozzle. Needles being off center in nozzles to some degree is normal, as I understand it, but needles being so off center that they actually scrape against the nozzle is not, and is considered a defect and a bad sign. I've read numerous threads in the past where this has been diagnosed as a very bad thing, and I see no reason why that would change just because the brush in question is a Micron.

I did not know the head assembly threads are not indexed. I got the impression they were due to FoxyStudio offering to customize prong orientation on the "black devil" cap catalog page. That would not be possible for brushes not physically in their possession unless the threads were indexed. Not a big deal, ultimately, as I could grind a prong cap out of a stock crown cap, and the existing offset on my brush would actually make that easier to get the orientation I'd want. Mostly just confusing.

I do consider the the "hitch" in the valve action a flaw, since it's uncomfortable and isn't present in other brushes. Not a flaw which affects the brush's performance, but does effect it's comfort in a way that stands out on something otherwise carefully designed. I have lubed the trigger and niether that nor the spring tension makes a difference. Opening the valve and lubing the internal o-ring might, but I don't know if that would contaminate the airstream or otherwise compromise the valve's function. If it is safe to do, I'd like to try it if it might eliminate or lessen that "hitch".

As far as how it sprays, yes, I've painted with it, and as far as I know it sprays OK. It's the first/only Micron I've experienced, so I have no way of knowing if it's spraying fully as it should, or just "OK, but not as good as it should".

I did use it with the stock needle before installing the K33 needle. I did not notice the "needle drop" issue until recently however, so I'd have to dig out the original needle and swap back to check if the original needle behaves differently.

As far as "not what I expected", my expectations can be simply expressed as "should be better than the $100 brushes I already own". I don't think that's in any way unfair. TBH, given the cost difference, I'd think it's a fair minimum. I didn't spend that money for the name, I spent it for the very reputation you'd dismiss my experiences with. If anyone want's to poo-poo concerns merely because I have the audacity to have any at all, then one might as well sell $500 whittled wood sticks as "Microns".

Both this brush and the K33 needle have very good reputations. I trusted the word of people here aggregated over years of consistent good peer review in order to form my expectations in the first place. Neither of these were an impulse buy, it was something I waited and watched and tried to vett through the community for years first. leaping to blaming my expectations implies that the community is useless for actually helping people make these choices.

As part of that community who has tried to help others in turn (to the best of my admittedly lesser experience), I did not and do not believe it is useless. Instead leaping around my actual concerns to questioning my expectations, or acting like I was taking a chance on rando Chinese parts by putting in a K33 needle kinda comes across as the honor of a brand name being more important than honestly helping.

I'm going to double check the fit and action on the stock needle. Depending how that goes, I'll be contacting either Iwata USA warranty services or FoxyStudio.

There are a lot of people that try Microns, and it is not a brush for them. There are also a lot of people that try Iwata's, but have a better feel with other brands, whether it be Badger, H&S or what have you. I thought I was trying to help - trying to point to the actual performance of the brush, rather than things you perceive as issues. So, now I will give it my best shot - return the brush, or sell it.
 
It really hinges on as whether the needle issue can be fixed. I'm actually hoping t's a problem with the brush that Iwata can and will fix, rather than a problem with the K33 needle, as that would resolve with me being able to use everything together as intended, whereas a problem with the K33 needle would mean doing without that (it really is significantly better at forestalling tip dry).

The other stuff is not a deal breaker. The cap alignment is a non-issue if nothing's wrong with the threads. I was worried something had gone wrong with the threads, but if the threads aren't meant to be indexed, then they're probably fine, and your explanation of something probably being overtigtened at the factory makes sense (nozzle caps and such being over tightened on new brushes is common in my experience).

The trigger is disappointing if it can't be fixed but something I can live with. I would still love to know if lubing the internal seal is safe or would help.
 
Did you buy it from Coast Airbrush? If so simple call David Monnig and he will have you send it to him and he will go through it .
If ya did not and you live in Cali Shame on ya cause David and his folks are really great people .
But the back end passed the trigger have some wiggle in them even my H&S Infinity . I have not had any nozzle to needle seal issue (where paint will pass through due to the needle not being seated right) even with the wiggle on the back end. unless of course I have a clog but a simple cleaning will fix that .
Granted my Micron is 10+years old But I can still pull super fine hair lines without issue.
Main thing even if you did not buy it from Coast is give them a call . Ya figure folks like Craig Fraser , Corey Saint Clair and other are in that shop daily and they all know how a Micron should work.
 
As I remember all of my microns and non microns have off centered needle/nozzle, so I wouldn't worry about this:)

I can tell you my story. I had "a bump" in the trigger mechanism right after starting the spraying, it was in new V2 micron! I've pulled out that part from HP-SB+ and installed in the micron, the parts are the same in V2 version. And it works OK now, and SB+ works also OK. So, I'm trying to say that the microns sometimes may have smth you don't expect to have in the AB for half a thousand.

The trigger is disappointing if it can't be fixed but something I can live with. I would still love to know if lubing the internal seal is safe or would help.

It could solve the issue.
Try new grease from Rokett Airbrush. Or other what you think may be good.
https://rockettairbrush-com.3dcartstores.com/Rockett-lube-02ml-sample-_p_16.html
either sample or bigger size. For the AB that "sample" will last for pretty good amount of time for the reason you need ridiculous amount of the grease for greasing the AB parts.
 
I would certainly have a good look at how the original needle is centred, if the original is fine the. The issue seems to lay with the K33 and will allow you to take pictures and speak to the vendor about a replacement. I can’t help with the trigger issue as I don’t know enough about them, but maybe the needle packing needs a tweak. Sorry if you’ve already tried that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
No needle in any brush that I know of will pull back centered in the nozzle.
The closest support for the needle shaft Is the needle seal...about 25-30mm from the tip of the needle.
It is a crush seal, not a proper bushing or guide and thus almost guaranteed not to aim the needle at the center of hole 25mm away accurately to within .01-.02 mm.

Going back from there it is next supported by the needle chuck, which must have play between it and the spring housing in order to function. Even if the spring housing bore were only .003" larger it would be a press fit at that point and .003 multiplied by the distance to the nozzle along the needle would throw it off center by more than the nozzle bore.

The design simply does not allow for a free floating supported needle to just hang there and move centered in the nozzle.
Just doesn't happen.

All needles ride the edge of the nozzle, the fact that you can see it is actually a good thing. This means that it is riding the nozzle edge at it's most forward point, indicating the needle taper is very straight and not rounded and is uniformly more accute than the taper on the inside of the nozzle.
Thus it will close very consistently.
This is ideal.

If you don't see it , it simply means the needle is riding the nozzle at a point that is recessed inside the nozzle slightly. Indicating it's taper is not ideal.

The hitch in the trigger seems odd and all I can think is perhaps the slots in the body that the pins ride in has an issue....the die cast insert that makes up that part is certainly the most poorly made part of every brush I've seen and I could easily see one of the slots being off in some way.

If you've lubed the piston pin I don't see where tearing apart the air valve to lube the seal itself would be of any benefit.
 
Last edited:
Oh, one other way a needle will pull back somewhat centered is if you actually have some crud built up inside the nozzle,. But that just means it's riding the crud at some point inside it.
 
If I remove a needle I also remove the trigger just out of habit and when I put the trigger back I always make sure I can press the trigger down before I install the needle and some times that trigger isnt seating right in the airbrush and I need to adjust it a bit so it falls into place
it could be your trigger isnt sitting right like basepaint pointed out
 
Nessus, regarding your problem with the trigger motion and the "bump" you're feeling, it could be that the "auxiliary lever" that's pinned onto the front of the needle chucking guide isn't properly seated. The bottom edge of this lever is supposed to ride in a small notch at the rear of the top of the air valve housing, behind the trigger. Sometimes the auxiliary lever can get caught on the edge of the air valve housing behind the trigger. It will work, and at a glance it will appear to be correctly seated, but when you pull back on the trigger it will bind against the needle chucking guide, causing the trigger to "bump" or snap as it's moved fore-and-aft. It's simple to address by removing and reinstalling the needle chuck assembly. Might be worth a look.
 
I just took apart my CM-SBV2 yesterday for a deep cleaning, and I mean everything (gotta love that iwata tool kit :D). For the first time I have been able to take apart things like the air valve assembly from the body without worry, and disassemble it. My guess the bump you're feeling is the air valve plunger going thru the o-ring in the body, or the o-ring in the air valve itself as is unseats from the valve body. It could be that yours might have sat on a shelf for years before being sold (check the date code). It's ok to lube that oring with a light coat of lube without "contaminating" your air supply. Same thing with the one around the plunger under the trigger. Just be warned it's a pain to get that little guy back in the hole. Long taper tweezers go a long way in helping this.

But ultimately, and I think Mr Micron, Robby, Dave, and Vlad will agree. Your instant "over-inspection", doubts about a Micron only being "ok", along with replacing the needle right away, maybe wanting to return it, has me thinking you're trying to "buy" your way into some skill level you don't have. Everyone will at least agree that their is no airbrush better than a Micron, that's why they are a legend. But they can't be so without the experience to control them. And as the old saying goes, "You can't buy fine lines and control.":whistling:
 
Back
Top