4
4d!
Guest
thanks for the great info frogman!
Badger Krome Vs. Iwata Micron Cm-C+
- Thread starter Mr.Micron
- Start date
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
of course theirs always something to add, last night i decided to load some efx into my micron and do some fine practice i dont care what anybody says and i wont be able to judge until i do get a krome but theirs no substitute for a micron. and after goofing around with wicked detail and my faulty 150 which i have to still send into badger upon instructions from ken . i have to say i love the micron cmsb and etac efx
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
i just threw out a set of cheap colord pencils i have the micron out does them 
T
tau
Guest
Another important safety tip : don't spray 1:1 or even 2:1 (reducer/paint) of AA alum base through a krome with the ultra fine tip on, you'll be cleaning....(I'm still cleaning). Got about 10s of spray then clogged for truth
(Did order a new compressor and spraygun though, so yay me )
(Did order a new compressor and spraygun though, so yay me
)
H
HCP-draggin
Guest
Just curious, but what, other than the finish, is the difference between the Krome and the Renegades? Also, how well do these Badgers hold up over long use?
The reason for my first question is that I had a chance to play around with a Renegade a couple years ago, and came away far less than impressed. Inconsistant spray, gritty action, the parts had a pretty loose fit. I wouldn't have compared it to an HP-CS, much less a micron. Has Ken managed to improve the quality and tolerances?
Second question is because I've had plenty of brushes that worked "almost as well as a micron" when brand new, only to have them fade out and break down over use. Just for example, in my 3 microns, I don't remember changing a single needle, nozzle, or head unit (or any other part, for that matter). In the same time, I've gone through at least 3 or 4 needle/nozzle sets in my Infinity 2-in-1. Sure, the Infinity nozzles are less expensive per unit than micron ones, but when you have to buy 4x as many, and counting, it adds up quick. Basically, I just haven't found any airbrushes that really perform like a micron (although plenty are very close), and certainly none that can match the longetivity and reliability. Especially if you can find an Olympos MP-series micron.
I've never noticed any issues with the Iwata needle stops, mostly because I never use them. Then again, I've never used them on any of my airbrushes. I played with the Infinity's "quick-set" feature for about 5 minutes when I first got it, but I don't think I've even thought about it since.. But, I will say that they do add a nice counter-weight and balance out the weight of an airbrush quite nicely. .
I guess I just have a hard time believing that a $150 airbrush can REALLY be as good as a micron. Mike Learn has spent tons of time trying to get Richpens and Paasches to work like microns, but hasn't been able to do it (especially if you perform the same mods on the micron that he does on his brushes). Eddy Wouters has spent years and years studying the micron, and attempting to find ways to improve on it, and has struggled to do so. He's managed to do it, but, as I said, it's taken him many years and God-only-knows how much money. But a $150 Badger is going to be the micron-killer? I don't know. I'd have to put that in the "I'll believe it when I see it" catagory. Unless the Krome is a BIG improvement over the Renegade, I just don't see it.
That said, obviously not everyone needs a micron, or would even benefit greatly from one. Ponno infamously uses an OLD Paasche Vjr for much of his work. Granted it's nowhere near "stock" anymore, but still, he is using what is really a "budget" brush, and making some of the best art out there. So, yes, it's the artist, not the brush. But, having a brush designed for the task at hand makes things a ton easier on the artist...
The reason for my first question is that I had a chance to play around with a Renegade a couple years ago, and came away far less than impressed. Inconsistant spray, gritty action, the parts had a pretty loose fit. I wouldn't have compared it to an HP-CS, much less a micron. Has Ken managed to improve the quality and tolerances?
Second question is because I've had plenty of brushes that worked "almost as well as a micron" when brand new, only to have them fade out and break down over use. Just for example, in my 3 microns, I don't remember changing a single needle, nozzle, or head unit (or any other part, for that matter). In the same time, I've gone through at least 3 or 4 needle/nozzle sets in my Infinity 2-in-1. Sure, the Infinity nozzles are less expensive per unit than micron ones, but when you have to buy 4x as many, and counting, it adds up quick. Basically, I just haven't found any airbrushes that really perform like a micron (although plenty are very close), and certainly none that can match the longetivity and reliability. Especially if you can find an Olympos MP-series micron.
I've never noticed any issues with the Iwata needle stops, mostly because I never use them. Then again, I've never used them on any of my airbrushes. I played with the Infinity's "quick-set" feature for about 5 minutes when I first got it, but I don't think I've even thought about it since.
. But, I will say that they do add a nice counter-weight and balance out the weight of an airbrush quite nicely. . I guess I just have a hard time believing that a $150 airbrush can REALLY be as good as a micron. Mike Learn has spent tons of time trying to get Richpens and Paasches to work like microns, but hasn't been able to do it (especially if you perform the same mods on the micron that he does on his brushes). Eddy Wouters has spent years and years studying the micron, and attempting to find ways to improve on it, and has struggled to do so. He's managed to do it, but, as I said, it's taken him many years and God-only-knows how much money. But a $150 Badger is going to be the micron-killer? I don't know. I'd have to put that in the "I'll believe it when I see it" catagory. Unless the Krome is a BIG improvement over the Renegade, I just don't see it.
That said, obviously not everyone needs a micron, or would even benefit greatly from one. Ponno infamously uses an OLD Paasche Vjr for much of his work. Granted it's nowhere near "stock" anymore, but still, he is using what is really a "budget" brush, and making some of the best art out there. So, yes, it's the artist, not the brush. But, having a brush designed for the task at hand makes things a ton easier on the artist...
Just curious, but what, other than the finish, is the difference between the Krome and the Renegades? Also, how well do these Badgers hold up over long use?
The reason for my first question is that I had a chance to play around with a Renegade a couple years ago, and came away far less than impressed. Inconsistant spray, gritty action, the parts had a pretty loose fit. I wouldn't have compared it to an HP-CS, much less a micron. Has Ken managed to improve the quality and tolerances?
Second question is because I've had plenty of brushes that worked "almost as well as a micron" when brand new, only to have them fade out and break down over use. Just for example, in my 3 microns, I don't remember changing a single needle, nozzle, or head unit (or any other part, for that matter). In the same time, I've gone through at least 3 or 4 needle/nozzle sets in my Infinity 2-in-1. Sure, the Infinity nozzles are less expensive per unit than micron ones, but when you have to buy 4x as many, and counting, it adds up quick. Basically, I just haven't found any airbrushes that really perform like a micron (although plenty are very close), and certainly none that can match the longetivity and reliability. Especially if you can find an Olympos MP-series micron.
I've never noticed any issues with the Iwata needle stops, mostly because I never use them. Then again, I've never used them on any of my airbrushes. I played with the Infinity's "quick-set" feature for about 5 minutes when I first got it, but I don't think I've even thought about it since.
I guess I just have a hard time believing that a $150 airbrush can REALLY be as good as a micron. Mike Learn has spent tons of time trying to get Richpens and Paasches to work like microns, but hasn't been able to do it (especially if you perform the same mods on the micron that he does on his brushes). Eddy Wouters has spent years and years studying the micron, and attempting to find ways to improve on it, and has struggled to do so. He's managed to do it, but, as I said, it's taken him many years and God-only-knows how much money. But a $150 Badger is going to be the micron-killer? I don't know. I'd have to put that in the "I'll believe it when I see it" catagory. Unless the Krome is a BIG improvement over the Renegade, I just don't see it.
That said, obviously not everyone needs a micron, or would even benefit greatly from one. Ponno infamously uses an OLD Paasche Vjr for much of his work. Granted it's nowhere near "stock" anymore, but still, he is using what is really a "budget" brush, and making some of the best art out there. So, yes, it's the artist, not the brush. But, having a brush designed for the task at hand makes things a ton easier on the artist...
Draggin like on the other forums you are on. I value your thoughts, Being I have not had the Krome for a full year like I have had the micron. I can not tell you if the needle and nozzle hold up.
but like Craig and other pros have said it is not the airbrush but the artist.
Ken is a member here and I am sure when he gets the time he can address some of your questions better.
What I compared was spray patterns , how much over spray i saw using the same paint at the same pressure to get the line quality I had come to expect from the micron.
I to never use the needle stop , But with it in place and the standard threading of the one on the micron I found that is will walk loose while painting with it vs. the fine threading that you can see on the Krome which keeps it in place while in use. I took pictures of both airbrushes and you can see them here: http://www.airbrushforum.org/airbrushes/5164-squishy-break-down-between-micron-cm-c-krome.html
As far as having to replace needles and nozzle other than when I first started airbrush and bent a needle I have had to replace the needle (warranty covered) on the micron straight out the box due to a dimple in the needle would not allow it to close off paint flow. So they sent me a complete head assembly and needle .
But with Eddy , Marissa , Dru and even Steve always using the micron. it seems that is the end all be all airbrush of the pros. But even the micron has some room for improvement and with a price tag like it has it should not need an ounce of tweaking when you buy it.
But I know Eddy has tweak the heck out of one.. Yes when I can afford it I will have one too
H
HCP-draggin
Guest
damn. My reputation proceeds me. .
I'm mostly just curious about what improvements have been made to the Krome over the Renegade I tried a couple years back. I'm not doubting that the Krome is a capable airbrush, or a good value. Well, ok, maybe I am a little bit, but only because expirience has tought me that less expensive airbrushes often cost more in the long run. I'm certainly not saying that everyone needs to go out and buy a micron, or even an Iwata, to enjoy airbrushing.
Anyway, it's good to be on the forum, and thanks for having me.
. I'm mostly just curious about what improvements have been made to the Krome over the Renegade I tried a couple years back. I'm not doubting that the Krome is a capable airbrush, or a good value. Well, ok, maybe I am a little bit, but only because expirience has tought me that less expensive airbrushes often cost more in the long run. I'm certainly not saying that everyone needs to go out and buy a micron, or even an Iwata, to enjoy airbrushing.
Anyway, it's good to be on the forum, and thanks for having me.
Squishy
Queen Clown Slayer
The krome is tempting me, but money is a huge issue for me, and though it is waaaaaay cheaper than a micron, it still seems like the micron will remain my ultimate dream brush. I wonder if I buy a krome, I would still ultimately really want a micron, and will I have wasted money I could have put towards a micron. Having said that, I probably will get a krome when I can though, based on feedback I've read from people I respect on this forum, (who have also used a micron), who love it and are producing awesome work. I always tell myself I would be a much better ABer if I had a micron, so it's just as well I can't afford it, otherwise I'd have to face a few hard truths about my lack of skills LOL LOL LOL!!! If I get a Krome and there's no dramatic improvement in my work, I've still got my lack of micron to fall back on LOL!
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
very well said andre...very well...i didnt read the last few posts yet from micron il read later when i have time just sold fire feeather fish for 100 to a friend that was he friend price and did some more work to a plieadeis now i have to work on a commission portrait for that guy im working for. just wanted to comment any bad words i said about the micron are un said being it is now my absolute favorite ab iv ever used next is the velocity .the only thing ium doing with my infinity is heavy stuf with the .4 and .6 when i get the larger nozzle set being i bend the .15needles to much. since i got the micron i only had that one incidence and the velocity is working better thain ever. as soon asi can afford it im getting a krome i like to work as many brushes at once this way if i have i custum color i can leave it in one gun and work other colors in other guns makes sense to me. I thiunk ordering hok and a . 6 nozzle set may over ride priority. yet i can totaly justify buying air bvrushes now that i seem to be making money with them awesome
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
o k i read it in my oppinion the renegade can be a bit gritty as for loose fit no not ever and after 1 year it works like a dream . one thing i dont understand is if it doesnt act like new i can for prety cheap buy a brand new needlwe bearing about 4 bucks and needle nozzle set and aditional hold down ring for real cheap making it a brand new gun
one last thing thain back to work if i do start getting busy im wondering if its possible to get one of those suped up microns marrissa has and what wood bee the price tag. oh and by the way i was working on some bare masonite and was spraying so fine it looked like a bit of dust on the panel cant even take a picture of it
one last thing thain back to work if i do start getting busy im wondering if its possible to get one of those suped up microns marrissa has and what wood bee the price tag. oh and by the way i was working on some bare masonite and was spraying so fine it looked like a bit of dust on the panel
cant even take a picture of it
H
HCP-draggin
Guest
the "suped-up" microns Marrissa is using are the super-microns that Eddy Wouters has been working on that I refered to. I have a very ealry prototype from Eddy, and given how that works, the super-micron is going to be worth every penny.
I'm glad to hear you're satisfied with your Renegade. I was just relating to my own expirience with them.
I'm glad to hear you're satisfied with your Renegade. I was just relating to my own expirience with them.
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
its a nice gun and feels good and weighty . i think i have other priorities to think about before buying a krome i just had a huge scare with my micron it would not stop paint flow i took out the fluid head and looked through the nozzle with my loop and it looked clean and nozzle looked fine i didnt drop it and the needle is better thain new even though its been through the mil i should be sporting a tatoo with the amount of times iv poked myself so i made a needle polisher from my eraser and a polishing wheel for a dremel it works great and gives my needles a chrome smooth razor sharp tip thats why i think the micron and velocity are working so awesome, i thought maybe the needle was polished out of shape or i had a micro fracture on the leading edge of the nozzle . but i think it was just lube mixed with paint goo ing up things it says right in the owners manual lube in the nozzle can be devistating or something like that .but any way it seems to be fine now. so i think its most impotent to order a spare nozzle 50 bucks and a needle 20 bucks and keep them safe for when i need them
as for the souped up micron im not woried about the trigger or needle chuck if they are souping up the fluid head needle and bearing i was wondering if those parts wood bee available (not that its necessary) I think i just have an adiction to super fine i know what im getting on a beter day i could not put on you tube my camera wont pick it up need a macro lense
as for the souped up micron im not woried about the trigger or needle chuck if they are souping up the fluid head needle and bearing i was wondering if those parts wood bee available (not that its necessary) I think i just have an adiction to super fine
i know what im getting on a beter day i could not put on you tube my camera wont pick it up need a macro lense
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Hey there I have ?
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
ok brooklyn whats the question
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
im starting to feel like i am talking to my self . I just cleaned my krome and replaced the regulator or hold down ring with a wee bit of teflon i dont realy think it makes a diferance and if yu use to much you can inadvertantly cause the hold down ring to not screw on far enough to set the nozzle properly so i also snugged it down with needle nose and i placed a few drops of efx white and its doing fine lines like a micron nice gun ken . my micron is getting jealous for now il leave it in its case until i do need super fine lines effortlessly. the next thing id like to try is a new infinity body and a .15 nozzle with a rubber o ring according to someone i spoke tpo oin the phone the problem with th infinity is the Teflon seal doesn't really make a great seal rubber would be better , as far as im concerned if buying a micron is going to lead you to living in the woods get a krome and use etac efx or com art or spectra i recomend etac
Cordyk
Sheriff Woody (Admington)
I'm listening to ya ferret! I managed to bend my .2 needle in the Krome so tried switching to the .3, did the whole switchover thing but I just could not get it to work right? So I had a go at straightening the .2 and it worked almost as good even still slightly bent! Quite impressed by that, I tried my trusty old Iwata HP-c+ but the trigger felt really heavy compared to the Krome!
And I also agree with you that etac is becoming my favourite paint, that stuff is silky smooth(except) black. Love the stuff!
And I also agree with you that etac is becoming my favourite paint, that stuff is silky smooth(except) black. Love the stuff!
airbrushingferret
Air-Valve Autobot!
i had the same thought of the black my first shipment of etac came with dropper bottles so theres paint residue on the tip of the bottle and it has a wet look except for the black it was flat and i didnt like it iether thain my second shipment came with eye drop caps (verry nice)that black is labeld carbon black the first was a 1 oz high jet black any way i was going to do a com[parison vid between micron vs krome a series using etac on different surfaces and i love how i can actually paint on glass with the micron and not get spidering so i base coated the mirror with the carbon black and even commented on how smooth it goes on .honest ly i don't even think im using com art any more and i told chris marbut of etac (us airbrush a southern com[any for a global community ) that if he ever closes up i would buy the stuff in gallons . he said there not going any were soon thank god . and while im at it i have to add when i first started i was using createx wand wicked and all i was doing was skipping to the loo to try to scrub out the paint and take apart the guns (all of them ) to clean out clogs .this problem and what do you use to pick your nose went the way of summer in long island when i switched to etac i haven't even had one clog in the krome yet. one last thing
this is important one problem i am having that i cant explain with the renegade series is when i got the velocity it seemed almost clogged after a while and especialy after i got the krome i did a side by side it seemed the krome was spraying a stronger amount of air so after checking everything was clear in the velocity i decided to switck just the hold down ring or regulator that seemed to be it thain last night after switching back it seemed all of a sudden the problem switched guns im like what the f@#$%^@%#^& after checking the regulator it was spotlessly clean there are no visible clogs or paint residue what so ever. other thain that the micron is taking a break gues il have to start using air brush cleaner and restorer and get some spare regulators and also if i spray windex over the trigger area when i press down for air i get bubbles some times heavy from the whole area dont know if its coming from the air valve or needle bearing it doesnt effect the airbrush its working but i dont think its dapostsa do that I dont have any of these problems with the micron
. he said there not going any were soon thank god . and while im at it i have to add when i first started i was using createx wand wicked and all i was doing was skipping to the loo to try to scrub out the paint and take apart the guns (all of them ) to clean out clogs .this problem and what do you use to pick your nose went the way of summer in long island when i switched to etac i haven't even had one clog in the krome yet. one last thingthis is important one problem i am having that i cant explain with the renegade series is when i got the velocity it seemed almost clogged after a while and especialy after i got the krome i did a side by side it seemed the krome was spraying a stronger amount of air so after checking everything was clear in the velocity i decided to switck just the hold down ring or regulator that seemed to be it thain last night after switching back it seemed all of a sudden the problem switched guns im like what the f@#$%^@%#^& after checking the regulator it was spotlessly clean there are no visible clogs or paint residue what so ever. other thain that the micron is taking a break gues il have to start using air brush cleaner and restorer and get some spare regulators and also if i spray windex over the trigger area when i press down for air i get bubbles some times heavy from the whole area dont know if its coming from the air valve or needle bearing it doesnt effect the airbrush its working but i dont think its dapostsa do that I dont have any of these problems with the micron
H
HCP-draggin
Guest
Going back to the super-micron questions-
I haven't had a chance to catch up with Eddy lately, so the info I have may be old info. However, the reason for the changes to the spring and trigger assembly are because Eddy discovered that many long-term airbrush artists had problems with tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc. To try to remedy that, he set out to find any ergonomic improvments that could be made. One of which is installing a much lighter trigger spring (which he is apparently having custom made locally. I tried to find something similar with no luck). He wound up using Dru Blairs CM-SB as the starting point. Dru has been using it his entire career, and apparently has never changed out the spring, so to say it's well-worn would be an understatement.
I don't have the specific numbers off the top of my head, but it's somewhere along the lines of- a stock, new CM trigger takes 2000-2500g to operate. Eddy's springs take about 600g. The difference is very, very noticable. Both in terms of comfort over long sessions, and in the ease of precision spraying.
Other than that, I know Eddy has expirimented with different platings, coatings, materials, etc. along with EXTREMELY fine polishing techniques. I'm not sure what the latest is on all of that, though.
When the "super-microns" are released, they will be available exclusively through Dru Blairs school in the U.S., and through Eddy himself in Europe (I have no idea about the rest of the world, though. But, Eddy is a nice guy, so I'm fairly sure he'd do whatever he could to get one to whoever wants one).
I don't remember offhand what prices will be, but they won't be cheap.
I don't know what the availability of parts will be. I would think that the commonly replaced and the modified parts would be available, though.
I haven't had a chance to catch up with Eddy lately, so the info I have may be old info. However, the reason for the changes to the spring and trigger assembly are because Eddy discovered that many long-term airbrush artists had problems with tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc. To try to remedy that, he set out to find any ergonomic improvments that could be made. One of which is installing a much lighter trigger spring (which he is apparently having custom made locally. I tried to find something similar with no luck). He wound up using Dru Blairs CM-SB as the starting point. Dru has been using it his entire career, and apparently has never changed out the spring, so to say it's well-worn would be an understatement.
I don't have the specific numbers off the top of my head, but it's somewhere along the lines of- a stock, new CM trigger takes 2000-2500g to operate. Eddy's springs take about 600g. The difference is very, very noticable. Both in terms of comfort over long sessions, and in the ease of precision spraying.
Other than that, I know Eddy has expirimented with different platings, coatings, materials, etc. along with EXTREMELY fine polishing techniques. I'm not sure what the latest is on all of that, though.
When the "super-microns" are released, they will be available exclusively through Dru Blairs school in the U.S., and through Eddy himself in Europe (I have no idea about the rest of the world, though. But, Eddy is a nice guy, so I'm fairly sure he'd do whatever he could to get one to whoever wants one).
I don't remember offhand what prices will be, but they won't be cheap.
I don't know what the availability of parts will be. I would think that the commonly replaced and the modified parts would be available, though.
H
HCP-draggin
Guest
btw- I don't work with or for Eddy, so don't take anything I say as being "official". I'm simply passing along what I know. If you have questions you want answered directly, I'd suggest finding Eddy on Facebook and dropping him a line. He's about as nice of a guy as you'll ever meet, so there's no reason to be shy.
