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SataGraph 4

Discussion in 'Airbrushes' started by ceezybeast, Oct 17, 2014.


  1. Don Wheeler

    Don Wheeler Spider Splatterer

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    I don't see anything wrong with Badger outsourcing their parts to local machine shops. Badger is a small company and their production doesn't justify the equipment to mass produce those small parts. The same goes for plating. It just makes economic sense. And if another company like Sata wants to buy airbrushes with their name on them, why not?

    Is Badger perfect? Heck no. But, when they screw up I think you will find that they do their best to make it right. If you don't like their airbrushes, fine. But there are a lot of people who are very happy with them. I wouldn't pick Paasche as a standard for high quality.

    Don
  2. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    [/QUOTE]
  3. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    Correct Mr Wheeler and the same applies to Badger as their quality has slipped quite noticeably as well. I will not choose to be a fan of Mr Badger/Ken's booster boys shouting down others who choose to use other lines. Mind you, I am not a proponent of any particular line but of quality. I do find it sad that as a US invention, there are no longer any high quality US made airbrushes in production. If only Wold and Thayer & Chandler were still with us. :(

    My earlier response was due to the other poster sounding an awful lot like one of Ken's booster boys and going so far to misquote me 2 fold. I also have been airbrushing for over 40 years and have made a living from it. I can't say that I was as concerned about seals on an airbrush as few if any tend to leak. Honestly, even my older brushes that don't use seals have no issues on leaks. I find the mention of it strange to say the least.o_O

    Regards,

    Chris the cabbie
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  4. Don Wheeler

    Don Wheeler Spider Splatterer

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    Thanks for responding, Chris.

    I admit I consider Ken Schlotfeldt a personal friend. If you have read my reviews, you know that he contributed many of my airbrushes. He did so even when I pointed out things I didn’t like about them. So, maybe that makes me a fan boy.

    Would I do things differently if I were in his spot? I think so, but I don’t know details of his situation. In a business, you have to maintain cash flow or you’re soon out of business. It’s easy for me to second guess his decisions, but I don’t have to worry about making payroll.

    Airbrushes are a shrinking market. It isn’t like the old days when most illustrators used them. A large part of what is left consists of hobbyists with limited budgets. And, even that is dwindling. At the same time, cost of materials and labor go up. Add to this the cheap Chinese airbrushes that flood Ebay, and it’s a real challenge.

    The recession hit Badger hard. Ken had to lay off some very experienced people. That and normal attrition means that a lot of his employees are new. And, documentation in a company that small is usually pretty minimal. That has to hurt some. I suspect the same is true of his suppliers. And, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is also true for Paasche.

    Iwata makes great airbrushes. Ken wouldn’t argue with that. But, I think Badger makes decent airbrushes. Maybe some are not as fine tuned or pretty, but they generally work well enough. And, Badger is known for great customer support. That may be what saves them.

    Don
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  5. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    Don,

    I fully agree with your points and this now being a shrinking market. I have read your site over the years and found it helpful. Do I wish some other lines had been covered, yes. But c'mon let's be fair here, this was your personal experience and progress in the hobby. Your page was not intended as a moneymaking venture or attempt to garner a share of the hobby market or to broadly influence buying choices. I also do not consider you one of the booster boys but am still puzzled at the experiments with Chinese brushes?:thumbsdown: You can always put lipstick on a pig but, when the lights go out... it's still a pig.
    I have seen a few threads go sour when users start whipping out "their preciouses". Lol Kinda sad really. I really dislike the bully boy mentality (that you know who has been privately fostering) and find it poisoning the hobby and stifling freedom of speech on the boards. If the same effort was used to include input from the artists to improve the designs, a more beneficial result would likely have followed.
    Like I said before, I have mostly vintage brushes, not to collect but to use daily. They all overlap in capability somewhat but in a good way. In the final analysis, it isn't how you get there but that you DO get there. Understanding the history of these nifty devices is the only way to understand where they might lead. Hopefully, we are not the last entry in this story and that the final page of airbrush history has not been written yet.
    Regards,
    Chris the cabbie
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
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  6. Don Wheeler

    Don Wheeler Spider Splatterer

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    Thanks, Chris.

    The reasons I bought a few Chinese airbrushes are that they are cheap, I was curious, and a lot of beginners buy them. Getting them to work better was just an interesting challenge. And, I hoped my experience would help somebody who had one.

    I'm used to seeing people wax poetic about their particular airbrush. Even the Chinese brushes have fans. But your comment about a bully boy mentality has me puzzled. I either missed some posts, which is possible because I don't read all of them, or I'm too dumb to catch on, also a possibility.

    By the way, there is a new Chinese airbrush with an actual Chinese brand that is selling for $129. I wonder if this is the beginning of Chinese companies getting serious about quality. For that price, it should be good.

    Don
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  7. DaveG

    DaveG Detail Decepticon! Very Likeable!

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    I received a Meng as a gift from someone living in Hong Kong. Interesting brush, with a few shortcomings. Build quality is a bit of a step up from normal Chinese bulk marketed stuff. But, it isn't perfect. The brush comes with 2 nozzle caps, to accommodate two different needle cap styles. One of the nozzle caps works very well, the other is off center.

    My assessment is that it is largely a marketing thing, that may eventually have the quality of the brush catching up.
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  8. MarcosD

    MarcosD Mac-Valve Maestro!

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    I believe that @DaveG has one of those to test.

    Please delete, write it at the sane time!!


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
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  9. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    Don,

    I see that DaveG responded about that Chinese brush you hotlinked in your post. I have also seen that brush pop up with multiple different names on eBay already. Run a search for "airbrush" to see what I mean. From what Dave mentioned in a previous phone con, the finish is better but the way it goes together is still sloppy on the back end but is showing some improvement. The real issue with the Chinese isn't if they can produce a quality brush. The real issue is the money oriented approach to production in that they are all job lots and once it's done, it's done and they don't care anymore. I would love to see them collectively stop ripping off the Iwata and Olympos designs and start innovating on their own. Sad fact is that ideallogicly, they have not been into innovating but copying for the last several hundred years.
    As for the "bully boy" thing. Your buddy Ken has been quietly trying to recruit less knowledgeable users to beat up on others on forums to have Badger be the last man standing when the question of the original poster are raised. Ken has been actively trying to recruit one of this forums own to that same end. I will not name the member but suffice to say Ken has been repeatedly turned down. If Ken opened a dialog with users to create a quality brush, I think it would be far less costly with a superior payoff for all concerned. As for the Satagraph 4, would you pay over $150 for a rebranded Badger? I sure as hell wouldn't.
    Regards,
    Chris the cabbie
  10. Don Wheeler

    Don Wheeler Spider Splatterer

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    Chris,

    If Ken is doing what you say, I certainly wouldn't condone it. He has never approached me to do that. I avoid the "What airbrush should I buy" posts unless there is something specific I can contribute. I know that Ken will support airbrushers who promote his product. But I've heard that Iwata does some of the same thing, and I figure that's just normal marketing strategy. There was a fellow a few years back on one of the modeling forums who blatantly pushed Badgers constantly. But, he was so obvious that I think he was pretty much ignored. On another forum was a guy who actually worked for Grex and every post was an advertisement. He got stomped on by members and eventually stopped.

    If I have seen the posts you refer to, they have honestly gone right over my head. I know that even without any prompting, some people are almost religious about their favorite airbrush brand. Harder & Steenbeck for example. I just figure that's human nature. Look at Ford vs. GM owners.

    No, I wouldn't pay more for a Sata airbrush or any re-brand.

    Don
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  11. Sali

    Sali Double Actioner

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    After going through Mr Don’s great reviews on Badger airbrushes and their renowned after-sale-support, I bought myself a Krome Jet, but was very disappointed in its finish. There were even sharp protrusions in the paint channel. Chad of spraygunner.com (from where I had bought it) advised me to talk to Badger that told me it was all normal. No, it was neither normal nor acceptable for a $100 airbrush. At any rate, Chad generously took that airbrush back and replaced with a Procon PS-270. The difference in look, finish, an performance between the similarly priced Krome and PS-270 was more than significant. It seems Badger’s QC has dwindled lately so does their legendary after-sale support.
  12. Sali

    Sali Double Actioner

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    Chris, I am one of the victim of Badger ‘gang’ on one of the Facebook group. It was so bad and humiliating at times that I was left with no choice but to leave that group for good. Now I have no reason to believe that they were under certain instructions by Ken, but yes, it is real and it is happening on face book groups.

    Now Chinese copying stuff from Iwata or H&S issue... I am an academician/researcher by profession and have at least over a dozen patents awarded and several more in the process. Patent rights are not infinite, they expire, sometimes after 10 years, sometimes after 20 years. This time is awarded so that the original inventor/innovator recovers their investment. However, once it is expired, it is a fair game hence generic drugs being produced all over the world. Secondly, patents do no cover you in the entire world but only in the countries where those were filed, hence one has to file patents in several countries to protect their rights.

    What Chinese (and Indians too, and a lot!) are doing is not illegal, for most of the original patents have gone expired over time and anybody, including you and myself, can reproduce the art without any legal issue. This is one of the misconception here in States that is systematically being thrown at masses that Chinese are copying and what not.

    Syed
  13. Don Wheeler

    Don Wheeler Spider Splatterer

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    Sali -- Your experience with the Krome is disappointing to hear. I hope it doesn't indicate a trend at Badger.

    Don
  14. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    Don,

    As I stated earlier, the issue is that Badger is not investing in checking the brushes before they ship and relying on the call center to run defense. If a moment was taken before letting them out the door there would be no follow up needed. Just sayin'....
    Regards,
    Chris the cabbie
  15. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    Oh and Don,

    You wanted some proof on the shenanigans we spoke of by Badger?? There you go. Granted, there doesn't seem to be too much on the online forums any more but it has gravitated to Facebook. Can't say I will join Facebook, but many have.
    Regards,
    Chris the cabbie
  16. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    Sali/Syed,

    I am sorry you had to go through that kind of BS as the hobby is supposed to be something that is relaxing. Your experience was the antitheses of it! In many ways people are using the net forums and now Facebook groups to curry favor and try to push buying trends, sad really as is does a disservice to all in the end. I am the last person to espouse one airbrush being better than another but a proponent of which one is better for the TASK than another! I have 18 airbrushes and 3 need to go away as they are surplus to me right now. What are they?

    -Paasche V with a #2 needle/nozzle
    -Thayer & Chandler A
    -Satagraph 2 (really a Gabbert Triplex)

    I can't really see myself buying much more as I have a sweet bunch of brushes including an early Iwata Micron SB V1. Heck I even have vintage pretty much covered and am a happy guy with plenty of overlap between them. Try to keep things on a happy tip Syed and don't let the bastards wear ya down. As for the Chinese comment, I too understand the patent issue but that was not the crux of my comment. If the Chinese took the time to make their OWN DESIGNS it would be better for all. They could be contributors and not thieves in the night. The production capacity IS there but not the intent to innovate or make something unique. Hopefully in time that will change..
    Regards,
    Chris the cabbie
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  17. Don Wheeler

    Don Wheeler Spider Splatterer

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    Chris -- I don't do Facebook or other social networks, which might be why this is news to me. And, I never asked for proof. I just said I hadn't seen it. At any rate, it's a shame. My airbrush reviews were based on the samples I had. I tried to make that clear on my home page. Sali had a bad experience. Apparently the finish of the brush was poor as was the response from Badger. I won't try to excuse that. By the way, Badger isn't big enough to have a call center. Whoever is closest to the phone answers.

    Don
  18. AndreZA

    AndreZA Elite Member! Elite Member! Very Likeable!

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    Not on the Badger is bad subject but the Satagraph made by Badger.

    They make guns for other's as well. They are a lot more focused on the hobby market than the art market.

    They make the Aircobra for Ammo Mig. https://www.migjimenez.com/en/ammo-airbrushes/1175-air-cobra-airbrush.html and the Apex for Ultimate Hobby Products https://www.umpretail.com/products/ultimate-apex-airbrush.

    All of these look like a lot better quality than the Badger branded ones. And look, they come with 1/8" hose fittings.
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  19. Chris the Cabbie

    Chris the Cabbie Spider Splatterer

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    The whole rebranding thing in the modeling hobby started in earnest in the 1990's. Tamiya first rebranded Richpen IIRC and now? Sparmax! Just goes to show you the vast modelbuilding majority know jackshyte about airbrushes and follow the herd in making a choice. That brings us back to the forums and posters asking that question again.
    As for Badger, as far as I am concerned-the less said the better. Take the Thayer & Chandler A and Badgers dumbed down copy - the 100 series. The regulator heads are seriously inferior in comparison and performance- and that from DaveG no less.
    Regards,
    Chris J

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